+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 31
  1. #11
    Mermaid efairyofthesea@hellokitty.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    UK (a bit confused)
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    Human beings is the only species that kill (and rape and torture and mutilate and beat and bully and harass and insult) for joy. No other living beings has ever done it and it probably will never happen too.

    And also we are again the only species that have kids with whoever. All the other species are careful with who they procreate.

    Uhhh. Well. I'm a biologist, and I can assure you, there's lots of species that do that crap for joy.

    Also the kids thing.
    ~You've to take your life how it comes. Your life, it's only one.
    Twins with: santa123fawr (MeSpirit/Mel)

  2. #12
    Senior Member shumibiggi@mymelody.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Grand-Métis, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    1,606
    So you have seen an animal kill or/and torture just for fun? If there's a video of this send it to me! And let's say it is true then one example of evil for the animals and countless for human beings.
    If you fall, I'll be there. - Floor

  3. #13
    Mermaid efairyofthesea@hellokitty.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    UK (a bit confused)
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    So you have seen an animal kill or/and torture just for fun? If there's a video of this send it to me!

    Game on.

    Ah, Biology, such fun and joy and terror.

    I don't know where people get the idea that animals are cute and cuddly; animals are definitely not cute and cuddly. When I started to study, I already knew animals were beautiful but kind of jerks, but anything about how noble they are... Let's just say my ethology course quickly disabused me of that notion. It seems like half of an ethology course is to destroy a biologist's love for nature and then rebuild it again even stronger, but more realistic.

    Let's start with a few sacred cows killing for sh1t and giggles!

    Killer whales:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52o5yV6G7tY
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_YN5GnW94o
    They also like to play "baby shark volleyball", and torture sea otters. Well documented. There are several biological databases where you can look up studies about this. They also like drowning baby whales. Sure, they eat them, but there are more straight-forward ways of killing baby whales other than purposefully swatting them down for hours. And whales are extremely smart, the mother knows what the orcas are doing, and the orcas know what they're doing to the baby and mother.

    Dolphins:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBul5j30V98
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWseKL5kQCI Doplhins killing baby dolphins.
    To be fair about the last one, males want to mate with the mother so they kill the baby (like lions). However, what it's also documented is that a lot of the time they act in an utterly sociopathic fashion and just kill the baby and go away, because apparently they were more interested in the baby-killing. Dolphins love 'em some infanticide. And pederasty. They rape them. Actually, dolphins are kind of like the rapists of the ocean. They're scumbags.

    Chimpanzees. Cuddly, right? *laughs*
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPznMbNcfO8 (This one's pretty impacting).
    They're also cannibals. Lovely. http://www.arkive.org/chimpanzee/pan...video-03a.html

    Also, langur monkeys are rapist torturers, hyenas gang up on other hyenas, and so on and so forth. This video does a fair job of exposing people to the animal kingdom even though I would make some SERIOUS corrections to it (for instance, ants shouldn't be in there at all, and some facts are off).


    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    And let's say it is true then one example of evil for the animals and countless for human beings.
    Think again. The animal kingdom is brutal, and its denizen s even more so. I love animals. That's why I am a biologist. They are magnificent, marvellous, wondrous creatures. OTOH, I also have to deal with the best and worst they have to offer.

    To be honest, these are not the best videos I could've gotten, these are just the best I managed on short notice. I have seen more specialised nature videos for my classes and, of course, I'm way more familiar with the scientific write-ups about such behaviour. Especially since I'm actually aiming for an specialty in enthomology (insects) and that's what I'm working on for my Bachelors thesis.

    But the only reason these kind of behaviours were unknown to us until recently is that we did not have neither the knowledge, nor the monitoring capacity/technology or manpower to watch animals interact in their natural environment in such a way. Our biological knowledge ahs EXPLODED in the last two decades: Even they way we used to think wolves' societies were structured (alphas, betas, omegas) are obsolete now! Even myself, from a third world country have access to some pretty nifty equipment to study animals in the wild. So, keep that in mind.
    ~You've to take your life how it comes. Your life, it's only one.
    Twins with: santa123fawr (MeSpirit/Mel)

  4. #14
    Senior Member shumibiggi@mymelody.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Grand-Métis, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    1,606
    I was talking about pure evil which is to enjoy it. Give me a video of an animal who kill or rape or torture or harass while enjoying it. This is what I want and also say that it does not exist.

    The example of Killer Whales playing with seals is often given and this is just them practicing hunting. They do not have computers where they can practice with and they do not have grocery stores where they can buy their food already killed. This also of course applies to all the other predators.

    The animals who are killed whether or not they are eaten after that are the weakest. If the weakest of the animals would survive to adulthood and if they would procreate it would create weak animals and this species could not survive. Only human beings have ignorant and evil people having babies with each others and look at what we have become.

    So again I want to see animals kill or torture or rape or harass with pleasure. Do you have footage or an animal kidnapping another animal and torturing him/her/them for minutes or hours or days or weeks or months or years? Do you have any other footage like that? There are plenty with human beings because we can be evil, animals cannot.

    Oh and of course when I say animals I include them all which also means insects and microscopic too.
    If you fall, I'll be there. - Floor

  5. #15
    Mermaid efairyofthesea@hellokitty.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    UK (a bit confused)
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    I was talking about pure evil which is to enjoy it. Give me a video of an animal who kill or rape or torture or harass while enjoying it.
    I already explicitly gave you this. If you won't admit to the orcas and dolphins' ones, you should at least admit to the first chimpanzee video. For the record, the individual wantonly murdered by the group of chimpanzees was (as stated by the video) part of the other chimpanzees' social group, and there wasn't any justified reasons such as friction within the established hierarchy (which do occur in the wild) to justify it.

    After examining the behaviour, and taking into account the innate intelligence of chimpanzees, the only logical, reasonable conlusion is they did it because they wanted to. It's not too much of a stretch to think that, since chimpanzees already exhibit so-called "superior" behaviours: Cheating the social order, tool-using, complex social interactions, the capacity of self-recognition (you'd be surprised how many animals can't recognise their own reflection), and so on and so forth.


    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    The example of Killer Whales playing with seals is often given and this is just them practicing hunting. They do not have computers where they can practice with and they do not have grocery stores where they can buy their food already killed. This also of course applies to all the other predators..
    Uhhh, no. I'm wondering if you read my comment.

    You do make a fair point in that animals do not have grocery stores, however, that's not the point I was making. Furthermore, I didn't bring up any seals, so I'm baffled why you would.

    And let's take this argument apart.

    You forget biologists already know what play or practice hunting looks like. It's mainly engaged by predator animals and their offspring; nevertheless, by no means precludes older predators since it "keeps their skills sharp". However, practice hunting is quick, methodical, to the point (I should make the capitulation that offspring are rowdy and they may engage in fun while doing it; this is not normal adult behaviour—you can think of this as their "day job"). The objective of play hunting is to learn and or maintain efficiency during the hunt.

    Perhaps I should take a detour on what nature is or isn't like.

    In the natural environment any activity is costly. The cost? Energy. Therefore, when a predator chooses to involve itself in play hunting, will do it such a way to minimise energy expenditure, since it's selectively advantegous to have a hunting method such that's very energy efficient. This is markedly different from when a predator or, indeed, any animal engages in play, which is usually in a period of "fat cows" and pays no regard to energy expenditure.

    For instance, expanding on the baby whales being drowned and eaten by orcas, the reason we can qualify this as enjoyable sadistic behaviour, instead of hunting (and orcas do hunt other cetaceans, make no mistake) is because:
    • Orcas know whales are sentient beings. They have played with them in other contexts. The extent of such play may vary due to the attitudes of the orca tribe in question (they have their own cultures and languages, it's so cool! Seriously, look that up).
    • The orcas choose to take the least energy efficient way of killing the baby. First they have, as a pod, to give chase to the whale mother and baby, (which could last for hours), and then separating the mother and baby by swimming between them (which can take hours as well).
    • When the orcas succeed in maintaining the separation, they swat the baby down so it can't resurface. This is to drown the baby. Do bear in mind that both cetaceans are superbly adapted to water, and they can stay under for hours. Less so for offspring, but it can take a good three hours, at least, for the baby whale to drown.
    • The whole, energy-costly proccess, can take up to 14 hours. This is no advantageous in any way to the orca. More efficient would have been an ambush, and just take bites off the baby until it dies from bloodloss or it can't keep up with the mother.
    As soon as a behaviour is too energy costly to be justified, it can qualify as play. This differs, from instance, from complex mating behaviours, in that they are potentially selectively advantageous since the performance of these behaviours may perpetuate the species.


    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    The animals who are killed whether or not they are eaten after that are the weakest. If the weakest of the animals would survive to adulthood and if they would procreate it would create weak animals and this species could not survive.
    Natural selection does not work like that. People prefer to think of it as survival of the strongest, but there's a reason the phrase is survival of the fittest. Frankly, "weakness" (as in lack of strength) is largely irrelevant to the capacity of survival of the species. What matters is just survival. Nothing else matters.

    Again, we come back, to energy-cost. To be strong, big, it's very expensive. The most successful animals and plants are the ones who can make do a lot with little energy. There's a reason the elephants are relatively few, and human beings are everywhere.

    (Just a quick aside: Biological success is the perpetuation and propagation of the species. Insects are more successful than humans, as are rats, for instance).

    This also highly depends on what evolutionary "strategy" the species has adopted, but it runs the risk of crippingly overspecialising the species. Many plants are endangered in the tropics, because they rely on a lone species of insect to be pollinised; and, once upon a time, it may have been a successful strategy, but as soon as environmental pressure doubles down and for some reason that particular insect population decreases, it leaves the plant very, very vulnerable. If something is successful, it's going to exist. Same reason we don't have dinosaurs anymore but have lots of birds. Birds aren't exactly "stronger" than dinosaurs. They're made of glass compared to them, honestly. But their dinosaur ancestor was more successful, it became more advantageous to be smaller, thus they're around, and the rest of the lot are not.

    The animals that are killed were the ones that were more convenient to kill. That does mean usually the weakest are killed, I concede that, but not always. If a deer felt too crowded in the herd, and chose to graze a little off to the right, that's the one that's going to be killed off, regardless of its actual physical qualities, and other weaker ones are going to survive.

    Evolution not only rewards physical atributes, it also rewards behaviours. Whether this are behaviours encoded in the animal DNA or promoted through that particular animal's culture (like the spear-fishing of orangutans, look that up!), the animal with "better sense" is one who has a good chance of surviving, too.

    Now, all this talk of natural selection and evolution may seem a bit off-tangent regarding the issue of play. How is play a natural advantage? Well, most of the time, adult play is not much of a natural advantage. Rather, it reflects two things:
    • The animal is complex enough to want to engage in frivolous activities.
    • The animal is successful because it can afford to spend its time and energy in frivolous activities.
    That's what play tells us.


    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    Only human beings have ignorant and evil people having babies with each others and look at what we have become.
    Infanticide, rape, abandonment, etc. are behaviours in which animals engage.

    To be fair, we do not have records of abusive parents in the animal kingdom (three qualifiers apply here: we don't have them yet—maybe—, it's not my area of expertise, and I'm still an undergrad). It could come back to energy cost, though. Humans don't have to worry about the energy cost, on the other hand successful practices to curb undesired offspring such as infanticide are banned because we have societal entrapments (which is good!!!!), and also bringing up a human infant is a lot more complex ordeal.

    OTOH, animals can only afford to raise offspring when they can spare the energy, especially if it's a species that reproducess3xually (s3xual reproduction is more expensive). For instance, hamster mothers eat their offspring if they perceive even the slightest threat to the survival of that offspring. This is to try to recoup some of the "energy expenses".


    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    Oh and of course when I say animals I include them all which also means insects and microscopic too.
    I had to take this as well, but just to add a couple of interesting facts:

    Interesting fact about insects: their neural networks lack the sufficient complexity so as to engage in complex behaviours such as purposefully wanting something that's not for strict survival. The case has been made that eusocial insects (termites, bees) as a collective may have sufficient intelligence, but it's not my area of research. Frankly, I'm more into the mycopathogenic side of enthomological studies.

    As for wanton behaviour, the same goes for microscopic animals.

    Uf! That was long!!
    I'm sorry.
    ~You've to take your life how it comes. Your life, it's only one.
    Twins with: santa123fawr (MeSpirit/Mel)

  6. #16
    Senior Member shumibiggi@mymelody.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Grand-Métis, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    1,606
    Again I just want to see an animal be evil just for the sake of it. I want to see an animal afflicting pain and enjoying it. Kidnapping, harassing, raping, bullying, killing, torturing, mutilating, doing any of that and enjoying it. Only human beings can do that.

    And on the other thread we are talking you said that human beings are not part of a de-evolution (im going there last and did not want to start a debate there too - by the way its nice to have a debate with someone and not receive insults and threats like most parts of the internet so thanks for that) and I do not agree with that at all. If we would not then how can there is more cruelty and ignorance? Every day it is getting worst. I used to say that I would be surprised to learn that there are one million person left that is sane and this Winter I had to lower that number to one thousand because I thought the other number was too high. Every day for the past years I wonder how Earth is still standing with vegetation, animals in the wild, breathable air, water that is not polluted and food; the only explanation I can come up with is that it is a miracle. When we finally disappear it will take millions of years to get rid of all we did as a species and even then I won't be surprised if there's still traces of our pollution that is still dangerous that remains.
    If you fall, I'll be there. - Floor

  7. #17
    Mermaid efairyofthesea@hellokitty.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    UK (a bit confused)
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    Again I just want to see an animal be evil just for the sake of it. I want to see an animal afflicting pain and enjoying it. Kidnapping, harassing, raping, bullying, killing, torturing, mutilating, doing any of that and enjoying it.
    Then you are not watching the videos I sent you, or reading what I write. I don't know aht you want we to say, to quote Lady Saw, I'm just telling you the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    And on the other thread we are talking you said that human beings are not part of a de-evolution and I do not agree with that at all. If we would not then how can there is more cruelty and ignorance?
    De-evolution is not possible because, contrary to popular belief, evolution is not something that's reversible. The evolutionary proccess only ever really moves in one direction.

    And, actually, there's plenty of evidence humans are getting smarter. However, what we choose to do with that intelligence. If people wanna be d0uch3bags, people be d0uch3bags, is what I'm saying.


    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    by the way its nice to have a debate with someone and not receive insults and threats like most parts of the internet so thanks for that)
    Well, I think manners are manners at the end of the day so, whether or not I am headdesking, it's no excuse not to mind my behaviour. There are ways of having an intelligent and pleasant discussion, and name-calling is so not one of them. So you're never going to get that kind of crap from me, no matter how much we disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    Every day it is getting worst.
    Actually, here is an article than explains better than I could why that perception is wrong.

    Even if my in my country things are getting worse, I reamin optimistic. You see, according to then ews there's been a spike in femicides, but that's not quite true. While certainly there's been an absolute increase, the only reason there's a spike is because finally the government is keeping more accurate statistics so the statistics are starting to reflect the real murder rate. I am alreading seeing my confidence validating by seeing the statistics plateau.

    Crime is down globally (some palces like my country are having an increase) but we don't feel like that since it's all business: people buzz more about bad news so news outlet bombard us with all these awful stuff with no mersy, so we think things are getting worse.


    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    Every day for the past years I wonder how Earth is still standing with vegetation, animals in the wild, breathable air, water that is not polluted and food; the only explanation I can come up with is that it is a miracle. When we finally disappear it will take millions of years to get rid of all we did as a species and even then I won't be surprised if there's still traces of our pollution that is still dangerous that remains.
    Hey, don't worry. As a biologist I can tell you the Earth is tougher most people give it credit for. Like, seriously. Besides, with no humans, most other things in human civilisation will be gone in two million years, tops; and the descendant species of the fittest animals who survived will be very well adapted into their new environment.

    This does not mean we shouldn't take conservation measures, we should! It may not be at quite the apocalyptic rate (blobally) doomsayers are bellowing, but we are still damaging the Earth faster than it can mend itself. And there are some areas that definitely need more help than others!

    And you sound depressed. You know I'm here for you, right? Sweetheart, I wonder if everything is alright.
    ~You've to take your life how it comes. Your life, it's only one.
    Twins with: santa123fawr (MeSpirit/Mel)

  8. #18
    Senior Member shumibiggi@mymelody.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Grand-Métis, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    1,606
    You are good to be positive when it comes to humanity. I stopped having hope for our species many years ago. We sure can do so much good but our negatives are way too gigantic and erases all our positives.

    As for the animals I watched the videos but do not see them doing what they did and enjoying it.

    I am depressed and have a lot of other issues but what I think about humanity is not because of all these problems I am having. Even if I had a nice life I would still feel the same way about our species. Thanks for saying you are here for me, if I did not have a computer with an internet connection I would be completely lonely, I have met so many wonderful people like that and I can express myself and have people help me too. I have a way out since October of last year so it is less worst but I am still living in a hell (all my life can be considered a hell but November 9 2009 is when it turned for the worst).
    If you fall, I'll be there. - Floor

  9. #19
    Mermaid efairyofthesea@hellokitty.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    UK (a bit confused)
    Posts
    1,098
    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    You are good to be positive when it comes to humanity. I stopped having hope for our species many years ago. We sure can do so much good but our negatives are way too gigantic and erases all our positives.
    I don't know, I suppose it's a matter of perspective. Perhaps living in such a messed up place that's been screwed over by foreign powers, corrupt governements and private corporations is what gives me hope.

    I see things changing in significant ways every day, always for the better, and amidst all the... Chaos, there's always something worth smiling for. And there are more local charities and volunteer outreach programs than ever, clearly, more people than ever are leaving their self-entitlement behind and making the world a better place!

    Perhaps you should try frequenting other online sites as well. I've encountered many admirable and uplifting people that way. I'd wager it'll restore your faith in humanity, even.


    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    As for the animals I watched the videos but do not see them doing what they did and enjoying it.
    So willful murder and screeches of excitement are not enough...? OK.

    Anyway, I think I've just stumbled across the first example of what my assessor called "the science divide". (I'd more accurately dub it as the especialist's divide, since what someone of a certain subject sees about a certain subject and a lay person are two different things. Also, I'm clueless in most other things not Biology).



    Quote Originally Posted by shumibiggi@mymelody.com View Post
    I am depressed and have a lot of other issues. Thanks for saying you are here for me, if I did not have a computer with an internet connection I would be completely lonely, I have met so many wonderful people like that and I can express myself and have people help me too. I have a way out since October of last year so it is less worst but I am still living in a hell (all my life can be considered a hell but November 9 2009 is when it turned for the worst).
    If you need to vent or anything, I'm willing to lend a friendly ear, though. Or if you need a phone call. I may not be able to have, you know, an extended conversation ($$$$$$), but I definitely can call to say hello.
    ~You've to take your life how it comes. Your life, it's only one.
    Twins with: santa123fawr (MeSpirit/Mel)

  10. #20
    Senior Member shumibiggi@mymelody.com's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Grand-Métis, Quebec, Canada
    Posts
    1,606
    International calls costs way too much. I have a good friend in Australia but we cannot talk on the phone (if i remember correctly it would be more than 1$ a minute). The company we have for our home phone has excellent deals for outside calls but it's only for our province with some great deals for the rest of Canada and a few good deals for United States.

    I do not see these screeches as excitement.

    I am on Bella Online and I found a lot of nice people there. This is where I vent my stress (they have a thread just for that and an entire board dedicated to stress too). Besides that I mostly am on Youtube (when im not watching a video almost 100% of the time theres a window opened with a song playing from there). I was often on Click For A Change but they disappeared last year, I still go there once a day in the hopes it is back (it was an online game website that gave to charities). I also go on Change once a day to look at the new petitions and sign the ones that are signable. I used to be on Causes but they refuse to change my location (they told me its because Google Map does not recognise my city) so I had to leave it (there too i try once a day). I was on Tree Nation but one of the person who created the website banned me from posting animal petitions in a forest for animals so I left. And before that I was on Care2 but that website is the hell of the internet (full of technical issues + they do not care about their members - its like it was created by people who hate charities so they make the lives of people who do miserable in the hopes they give up trying).

    I cannot be positive about our species. But I cannot also judge someone just because they are a human being, when I do have the proof that that person is bad then I have no problem judging.
    If you fall, I'll be there. - Floor

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts